From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 2 21:35:56 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26779 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id AAA11732 for hockey-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id AAA11726 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA26757; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:33:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807030433.VAA26757@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: unbelver@brain.jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2792 Lines: 65 Hey all, (Data, this is also a request for the hockey servers you run.) Somewhat of a rant here (with a suggestion for improvement), but there is a big confusion about RCDs, macros and hockey. It all started for me a couple of months ago when I passed to someone who was out of fuel. He moaned at me about how he status messaged to the team board that he was out of fuel. I told him I noticed a few planet take RCDs from him and he mentioned, "Those were it. Your RCDs are broken, fix 'em." Again today, Mojo is spitting out the Armies Carried RCD, I questioned him about it, and he proceeded to say that It was his status message and that "Your RCDs are broken, fix 'em" Now, correct me if I'm wrong, assuming a server allows RCDs, isn't the purpose of an RCD is to format MY distress the way YOU want to see it and with the information YOU want to see. Example: I have an RCD for the Armies Carried that says: "I'm a twink and I'm carrying # armie(s) and my ship is at % hull, %shields, %fuel" Player A sends the armies carried RCD and I see my "I'm a twink" message, and Player B, who hasn't defined any RCDs sees the default "Carrying n armies". In other words, only I see the RCD I defined. When I pointed this out today, the response was along the lines of: "Duh, you're an idiot for not having different RCDs for hockey. I mean, who's gonna carry armies in hockey?" Whence I then pointed out that fine, I was an idiot, but changing the MEANING of the RCD is a Bad Idea. Using a planet take or armies carried RCD when you should've used the distress RCD (where the default usually displays the status) just confuses the hell out of everyone else who doesn't have YOUR RCD. Your message just doesn't get across. What can we do about this? 1) Stick to the default meaning of the RCD. No planet take RCDs for status reports. 2) Compile a list of standard RCD definitions for hockey and make everyone use them. and My personal suggestion: 3) Turn off the RCD feature on the hockey server(s). Option 3 depends on whether or not I understand how RCDs are implemented. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here it is. If a server allows RCDs, the client sends a "I'm sending RCD #2" to the server, the server sends to all the clients, "Player a is sending RCD #2" and the clients generate the appropriate text from the RCD definitions that the user(s) has written. If RCDs are disabled, then the RCDs essentially turn into macros. If a player wants to send an RCD, his client has to generate the full text and send that to the server and the server sends the full text to all the clients. Option #3 would be transparent to the users who want to change the distresses and would not rely on EVERYBODY having the same set of RCDs. Comments? --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 04:38:00 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA08359 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id HAA16005 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mccsun1.MIT.EDU (MCCSUN1.MIT.EDU [18.70.1.24]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id HAA16001 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sdfranks@localhost) by mccsun1.MIT.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.12) id HAA10012; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807061129.HAA10012@mccsun1.MIT.EDU> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Jul 1998 21:33:25 PDT." <199807030433.VAA26757@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 07:29:30 EDT From: Steve Franks Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1448 Lines: 39 On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:33:25 -0700 (PDT) "Carlos Y. Villalpando" wrote: You're right in some things, Carlos. RCD's really aren't that useful in hockey. In fact, the only RCD I can think of that is even remotely helpful is the distress. I would say instead of trying to change the RCD system (which works well for bronco) hockey players just use some standard macros. Here's what I have: mac.T.T: (%i) %?%f>35%{fuel(%f%%)%!%?%f>15%{LOW fuel(%f%%)%!NO FUEL(%f%%)%}%} %?%d<20%{%!%?%d<40%{dam(%d%%)%!%?%d<60%{MED dam(%d%%)%!%?%d<85%{HEAVY dam(%d%%)% !NASTY DAM(%d%%)%}%}%}%} %?%s>75%{%!%?%s>50%{shd(%s%%)%!LOW shd(%s%%)%}%} singleMacro: T This is the best hockey macro out there. It is the macro that tells the most important information in the clearest way. mac.r.T: I am refueling/repairing mac.c.T: DON'T pass to me. I am not open! mac.d.T: I'm open! mac.f.T:(%i) I am running low on fuel, %f%% mac.i.T:I have the puck, GET OPEN!!! (I suggest remapping this to your left hand though) mac.C.T: DO NOT KILL %U (%p)!! HE IS CRIPPLED!! (or something to this effect) I think that using the above status macro will help a lot, because it not only puts the information you need right in front, but it gives everyone the same information and doesn't let them remap it. Of course if you want to add some hockey RCD's into the client, I'm sure you won't get many arguements :-) --Steve From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 11:47:41 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11451 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id OAA29952 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from network.jpl.nasa.gov (network.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.187]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id OAA29948 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by network.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.2) id LAA05959 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:44:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807061844.LAA05959@network.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:44:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807061803.OAA00755@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> from "Jeffrey Nowakowski" at Jul 6, 98 02:03:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2964 Lines: 69 Jeffrey Nowakowski wrote: > Steve Franks wrote: > > You're right in some things, Carlos. RCD's really aren't that useful in > > hockey. > > I disagree. Why doesn't everybody just use the distress RCD and the > crippled RCD? Those are the two most important ones. Let people map > them as they please. I have no problem with that only if people are willing to stick to those two RCDs. The real problem comes when people use the other RCDs like the army carry and planet take RCDs re-define them so that THEY see what the want to see, and expect us to see the same thing. Now if we all decide just using the distress and cripple RCDs are a good thing and we mandate it as such, how are we going to get people who have re-defined their RCDs to agree to use the correct ones? Now I scrounged around and found this little tidbit below in the COW documentation. The important part is is the first and last paragraphs. If RCDs aren't supported, then we see what the sender wants us to see. I've never compiled a server before, but is it possible to disable RCDs? --Carlos V. =========================================================================== Well... here's how it works.... Each RC_DISTRESS compatible client can make the distress call appear as whatever you like through their .xtrekrc... If you DONT have a new enough client the server will do a default parsing of the distress call and you will see it like that. Also if the server is old then the distress call sent out by each client will appear the way _the sender_ likes to have them displayed. Let me summarize with an example: F0 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 maggots.' F1 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 armies.' F2 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 lawyers. 20% fuel' The server default is 'Carrying 4.' Note: Advanced RC_DISTRESS users should note that 'F' can be remapped easily in at least 2 different ways. For example throught .xtrekrc dist.(.carrying: %T%c: Carrying %a maggots. singleMacro: ( (this will make 'X(' or '(' be the same as 'F' used to be) There will be more documentation on this coming later but basically the syntax is the same as SMARTMACRO and NEWMACRO. ----------- On a NEW server: Case 1: All of them are using a new client. F1 will ALWAYS see 'Carrying x armies.' No matter who sent it. Case 2: Only F1 is using an old client. F1 will see the _server_ set defaults for the carrying call from everybody. Note that the calls from F0 and F2 will appear in the same format to him on this server (but may appear in a different format on different servers). F2 and F0 will see F1's client-defined distress calls. --------------- On an old server: F1 will see whatever the sender likes to see (in this case the sender sends the pre-formatted text instead of the RC_DISTRESS short-hand). So a 'F' from F2 will appear to everybody as: 'Carrying 4 lawyers. 20% fuel' a 'F' from F0 will appear to everybody as: 'Carrying 4 maggots.' From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 16:30:14 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14432 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA10238 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA10232 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id QAA25323; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:28:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807062328.QAA25323@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807061844.LAA05959@network.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at "Jul 6, 98 11:44:02 am" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 853 Lines: 19 Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > Jeffrey Nowakowski wrote: > > Steve Franks wrote: > > > You're right in some things, Carlos. RCD's really aren't that useful in > > > hockey. > > > > I disagree. Why doesn't everybody just use the distress RCD and the > > crippled RCD? Those are the two most important ones. Let people map > > them as they please. > > I have no problem with that only if people are willing to stick to those > two RCDs. The real problem comes when people use the other RCDs like > the army carry and planet take RCDs re-define them so that THEY see > what the want to see, and expect us to see the same thing. Well, that's the correct behavior, only the people who wrote the RCD code refused to see it. If you don't have an RCD defined, you should see what the sender has defined. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 16:50:37 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14590 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA10780 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from network.jpl.nasa.gov (network.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.187]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA10776 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by network.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.2) id QAA06514 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807062349.QAA06514@network.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807062328.QAA25323@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 6, 98 04:28:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2315 Lines: 53 Now, I really have to speak. Tom is one of the people who have redefined the MEANING of the RCDs. Tom Holub wrote. > Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > > Jeffrey Nowakowski wrote: > > > Steve Franks wrote: > > > > You're right in some things, Carlos. RCD's really aren't that useful > > > > in hockey. > > > > > > I disagree. Why doesn't everybody just use the distress RCD and the > > > crippled RCD? Those are the two most important ones. Let people map > > > them as they please. > > > > I have no problem with that only if people are willing to stick to those > > two RCDs. The real problem comes when people use the other RCDs like > > the army carry and planet take RCDs re-define them so that THEY see > > what the want to see, and expect us to see the same thing. > > Well, that's the correct behavior, only the people who wrote the RCD code > refused to see it. If you don't have an RCD defined, you should see what the > sender has defined. Ok, so what happens if I do have an RCD defined for the one you're sending. Which should I see, mine or yours? How do I know a priori what you have defined for a particular RCD? And if I do, how do I reconcile what you have written with what player B has written that is different? Here's what you have for the planet taking RCD (from your previous message) dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm OPEN! %fF,%dD,%sS (in %S) What if I defined it this way: dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm CRIPPLED and NO GAS. Don't pass to me! You send your planet save RCD and I won't pass to you 'cause I don't know you've done something different and I think you're crippled and out of gas. See my problem? Who's right? Neither, I say. BOTH of our RCDs are broken. The message isn't getting across. If you want to do this, you have to make EVERYONE use the EXACT same RCDs. Please, Please, Please do what Data and I ask and at least use the dist.crippled and dist.help RCDs for cripple and status messages at least. Don't change the meaning of the RCD and expect us to know what you mean. Or use macros instead. You're using dist.save_planet for "I'm open" dist.carrying for status, and dist.pickup for crippled. That last one I'm scratching my head on since there already is a dist.crippled. --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 18:11:34 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15161 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id VAA12584 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id VAA12580 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id SAA12318; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807070110.SAA12318@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807062349.QAA06514@network.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at "Jul 6, 98 04:49:21 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2657 Lines: 59 Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > Now, I really have to speak. Tom is one of the people who have > redefined the MEANING of the RCDs. > > Tom Holub wrote. > > Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > > > Jeffrey Nowakowski wrote: > > > > Steve Franks wrote: > > > > > You're right in some things, Carlos. RCD's really aren't that useful > > > > > in hockey. > > > > > > > > I disagree. Why doesn't everybody just use the distress RCD and the > > > > crippled RCD? Those are the two most important ones. Let people map > > > > them as they please. > > > > > > I have no problem with that only if people are willing to stick to those > > > two RCDs. The real problem comes when people use the other RCDs like > > > the army carry and planet take RCDs re-define them so that THEY see > > > what the want to see, and expect us to see the same thing. > > > > Well, that's the correct behavior, only the people who wrote the RCD code > > refused to see it. If you don't have an RCD defined, you should see what the > > sender has defined. > > Ok, so what happens if I do have an RCD defined for the one you're > sending. Which should I see, mine or yours? Yours, of course, that's the whole idea. If you DON'T have one defined, however, you should see what I send. > Here's what you have for the planet taking RCD (from your previous > message) > > dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm OPEN! %fF,%dD,%sS (in %S) > > What if I defined it this way: > > dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm CRIPPLED and NO GAS. Don't pass to me! > > You send your planet save RCD and I won't pass to you 'cause I don't > know you've done something different and I think you're crippled and > out of gas. See my problem? Who's right? Neither, I say. Well, that's true to an extent. But it's more a matter of convention than anything else; the same thing could happen in normal netrek. > Please, Please, Please do what Data and I ask and at least use the > dist.crippled and dist.help RCDs for cripple and status messages at least. > Don't change the meaning of the RCD and expect us to know what you > mean. Or use macros instead. You're using dist.save_planet for "I'm > open" dist.carrying for status, and dist.pickup for crippled. That > last one I'm scratching my head on since there already is a dist.crippled. It's not crippled, it's a status report, that I use in almost precisely the same way I use shift-F in normal netrek. Sometimes it's because I'm crippled, but there is "I need help right now!" crippled, which is shift-E, and "I'm hurt or low gas, don't count on me" crippled, which is shift-F. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 23:45:35 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16468 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 23:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id CAA20650 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id CAA20646 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16452 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 23:44:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807070644.XAA16452@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 23:44:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807070110.SAA12318@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 6, 98 06:10:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2552 Lines: 65 Tom Holub wrote: > Carlos Villalpando wrote: > > Tom Holub wrote: > > > Well, that's the correct behavior, only the people who wrote the RCD code > > > refused to see it. If you don't have an RCD defined, you should see what > > > the sender has defined. > > > > Ok, so what happens if I do have an RCD defined for the one you're > > sending. Which should I see, mine or yours? > > Yours, of course, that's the whole idea. Ok, you realize that what I see can most definitely be different from what you intend. > > You send your planet save RCD and I won't pass to you 'cause I don't > > know you've done something different and I think you're crippled and > > out of gas. See my problem? Who's right? Neither, I say. > > Well, that's true to an extent. But it's more a matter of convention > than anything else; the same thing could happen in normal netrek. Where the convention is to use the correct RCD. But in any case, given that you know what I see and what you intend can be different, wouldn't it be better to use a method that will GUARANTEE that I see what you intend. Using a macro, or the correct distress comes to mind. In another message, you wrote: Tom Holub wrote: > Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > > Uh, no, that's just dumb. Shift-f is for carrying armies. Are there > > any armies in hockey? Shift-e makes sense, but you don't have it > > remapped in your macros? > > What macros? Oh, I see, you want me to spend half an hour poking through > lousy manuals trying to figure out how to set things up. Uhhh, which would be easier... You reading them manual, or me reading your mind? I'll save you some manual reading. The macro definition syntax is exactly the same as the distress syntax with 2 differences. The first is that you have to hit the macro key and the second is on the definition line. Instead of dist.., its mac.. I.e. mac.s.T defines a macro for the s key to send to the team. A is for all. Lots of people using all sorts of RCDs today. I saw the asw, the pop, the asbomb, and the bombing RCDs. The one new one I saw today, and which was quite useful is when someone actually used the no_gas RCD (enemy has no gas) correctly. I think I'm going to have my hockey RCDs have something like: dist. %* to ignore every distress except help, help1, help2, no_gas, and crippled. If I don't get the distress, its their fault for not using the right distress. --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 09:29:08 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18585 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA03132 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA03121 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id JAA13575; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807071626.JAA13575@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807070644.XAA16452@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at "Jul 6, 98 11:44:31 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2053 Lines: 51 Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > Carlos Villalpando wrote: > > > Tom Holub wrote: > > > > Well, that's the correct behavior, only the people who wrote the RCD code > > > > refused to see it. If you don't have an RCD defined, you should see what > > > > the sender has defined. > > > > > > Ok, so what happens if I do have an RCD defined for the one you're > > > sending. Which should I see, mine or yours? > > > > Yours, of course, that's the whole idea. > > Ok, you realize that what I see can most definitely be different from > what you intend. > > > > You send your planet save RCD and I won't pass to you 'cause I don't > > > know you've done something different and I think you're crippled and > > > out of gas. See my problem? Who's right? Neither, I say. > > > > Well, that's true to an extent. But it's more a matter of convention > > than anything else; the same thing could happen in normal netrek. > > Where the convention is to use the correct RCD. What is "correct"? It's defined only by convention. > But in any case, given that you know what I see and what you intend > can be different, wouldn't it be better to use a method that will > GUARANTEE that I see what you intend. Using a macro, or the correct > distress comes to mind. The idea of RCD's is that YOU see my message the way YOU want it formatted. The reasons for wanting this are just as valid for hockey as for netrek. > Uhhh, which would be easier... You reading them manual, or me reading > your mind? > > I'll save you some manual reading. The macro definition syntax is > exactly the same as the distress syntax with 2 differences. The first > is that you have to hit the macro key Which is precisely what I don't want to do, and precisely why I'm using the shift-E and shift-F distresses. > to ignore every distress except help, help1, help2, no_gas, and crippled. > If I don't get the distress, its their fault for not using the right > distress. Idiot. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 09:36:15 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18625 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA03499 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (bridges@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU [192.12.69.230]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA03485 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bridges@localhost) by blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA01606 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:34:54 -0700 From: "Patrick G. Bridges" Message-Id: <199807071634.JAA01606@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:34:54 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199807071626.JAA13575@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 09:26:28 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 806 Lines: 21 > > > > I'll save you some manual reading. The macro definition syntax is > > exactly the same as the distress syntax with 2 differences. The first > > is that you have to hit the macro key > > Which is precisely what I don't want to do, and precisely why I'm using > the shift-E and shift-F distresses. > Which is why there's the singlemacro command to remove this difference. If everyone (new or current) has to reconfigure their client to understand what you're saying, and the first time people play, they can't understand what's being said at all, how is this good? > > to ignore every distress except help, help1, help2, no_gas, and crippled. > > If I don't get the distress, its their fault for not using the right > > distress. > > Idiot. > -Tom Show some tact, folks. It's only a game. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 13:16:22 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20002 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id QAA11641 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id QAA11637 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19873 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:42:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807071942.MAA19873@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:42:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807071626.JAA13575@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 09:26:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1421 Lines: 36 Tom Holub wrote: > Carlos Villalpando wrote: > > Where the convention is to use the correct RCD. > > What is "correct"? It's defined only by convention. And the convention is to use the 'taking' RCD when you're going to take, the 'crippled' RCD for calling a cripple, etc.... Its like everybody who speaks English agreeing on the definition of the word 'the'. If I come to you and I decided to use the word 'the' and redefine it to mean 'it' and I don't tell you, we wouldn't have a productive conversation because you wouldn't understand what I'm saying. > The idea of RCD's is that YOU see my message the way YOU want it formatted. > The reasons for wanting this are just as valid for hockey as for netrek. Exactly. I agree with you there. Unfortunately for you, I have decided to format my RCDs to correlate in meaning with the RCD name. > > to ignore every distress except help, help1, help2, no_gas, and crippled. > > If I don't get the distress, its their fault for not using the right > > distress. > > Idiot. Come on, Tom. The responses between you and I have been productive and civil, it was the other guy who called you names. Lets keep it that way. The reason I'm going to ignore all the other RCDs is selfish, really. If I'm going to misunderstand or not understand the message at all, I don't want it cluttering my message screens. --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 12:28:46 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11952 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id PAA01589 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from network.jpl.nasa.gov (network.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.187]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id PAA01580 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by network.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.2) id MAA06050 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:27:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807061927.MAA06050@network.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:27:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807061853.OAA10964@mccsun1.MIT.EDU> from "Steve Franks" at Jul 6, 98 02:53:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 104 Lines: 8 Oh well, I guess The Person At Which The Buck Stops has spoken. I shall be quiet now. --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 16:29:03 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14406 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA10209 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:27:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA10205 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id QAA24824; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:26:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807062326.QAA24824@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807061853.OAA10964@mccsun1.MIT.EDU> from Steve Franks at "Jul 6, 98 02:53:39 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1746 Lines: 37 Steve Franks writes: > > > > Now I scrounged around and found this little tidbit below in the COW > > documentation. The important part is is the first and last > > paragraphs. If RCDs aren't supported, then we see what the sender > > wants us to see. I've never compiled a server before, but is it > > possible to disable RCDs? > > Yes, but that defeats what RCD's were created for. They are designed to > lower bandwidth. If people want to use them, they should be there. > I agree that people shouldn't be using non-related macros that just > happen to have the information in their version but not in the default. > Ideally, there would be hockey specific RCD's that came with the client, > but until some really bored client developer wants to put in some > new RCD's, I'd say use just the crippled RCD and the status macro I > provided. We do not want to add more RCD's; there are way the fuck too many already. What we want is for people to have intelligent defaults in their hockeyrc's for the shift-E and shift-F macros. I don't care what RCD's those are, those are the ones that make the most sense to use, because they require the least effort on everyone's part. Even newbies probably know about shift-E and shift-F. For the record, here are my hockey RCD's: # Receiver Configurable Distress Calls # default keystroke is ^1 dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm OPEN! %fF,%dD,%sS (in %S) # # default keystroke is F dist.carrying: %i (%S) %?%f>35%{fuel(%f%%)%!%?%f>15%{LOW fuel(%f%%)%!NO FUEL(%f%%)%}%} %?%d<20%{%!%?%d<40%{dam(%d%%)%!%?%d<60%{MED dam(%d%%)%!%?%d<85%{HEAVY dam(%d%%)%!NASTY DAM(%d%%)%}%}%}%} %?%s>75%{%!%?%s>50%{shd(%s%%)%!LOW shd(%s%%)%}%} # # default keystroke is ^9 dist.pickup: %T%c->%O %h crippled -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 18:49:26 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15346 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id UAA11849 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 20:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (root@amber.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.51]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id UAA11844 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 20:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snowdon.ccs.neu.edu (jeffno@snowdon.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.132]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29723 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 20:35:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Nowakowski Received: (from jeffno@localhost) by snowdon.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA03338 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 20:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807070035.UAA03338@snowdon.ccs.neu.edu> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 20:35:38 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199807062326.QAA24824@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 6, 98 04:26:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 929 Lines: 27 Tom Holub wrote: > We do not want to add more RCD's; there are way the fuck too many > already. Yes, so why are you using unnecessary ones? Distress and cripple is all you really need. > What we want is for people to have intelligent defaults in their > hockeyrc's for the shift-E and shift-F macros. Uh, no, that's just dumb. Shift-f is for carrying armies. Are there any armies in hockey? Shift-e makes sense, but you don't have it remapped in your macros? > For the record, here are my hockey RCD's: > dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm OPEN! %fF,%dD,%sS (in %S) save_planet means you're open and my RCD is supposed to match? Now that's stupid. If you're open, the guy with the puck will probably see you on his galactic. Use a distress if you want to indicate your status. > dist.pickup: %T%c->%O %h crippled Pickup means crippled? Huh? Why don't you just use the crippled RCD? -Jeff (specter) From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 6 18:17:22 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15192 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id VAA12730 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id VAA12726 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id SAA14806; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:15:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807070115.SAA14806@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807070035.UAA03338@snowdon.ccs.neu.edu> from Jeffrey Nowakowski at "Jul 6, 98 08:35:38 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1593 Lines: 39 Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > We do not want to add more RCD's; there are way the fuck too many > > already. > > Yes, so why are you using unnecessary ones? Distress and cripple is > all you really need. > > > What we want is for people to have intelligent defaults in their > > hockeyrc's for the shift-E and shift-F macros. > > Uh, no, that's just dumb. Shift-f is for carrying armies. Are there > any armies in hockey? Shift-e makes sense, but you don't have it > remapped in your macros? What macros? Oh, I see, you want me to spend half an hour poking through lousy manuals trying to figure out how to set things up. > > For the record, here are my hockey RCD's: > > dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm OPEN! %fF,%dD,%sS (in %S) > > save_planet means you're open and my RCD is supposed to match? Now > that's stupid. If you're open, the guy with the puck will probably > see you on his galactic. Use a distress if you want to indicate your > status. Most hockey players couldn't see you on the galactic if you had big flashing lights saying "PASS TO ME YOU STUPID FUCKER" above your ship. And, more to the point, ICM (the best team in the history of netrek hockey) finds it very useful, since it's usually not immediately clear to the person with the puck when someone has come open; positions are easy to get from the galactic, but vectors and ship state are not. > > dist.pickup: %T%c->%O %h crippled > > Pickup means crippled? Huh? Why don't you just use the crippled RCD? I use that the same way I use 2++ in normal netrek. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 09:58:41 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18865 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA04251 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (root@[129.10.116.51]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA04245 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (jeffno@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.111]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02366 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:56:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Nowakowski Received: (from jeffno@localhost) by blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA02582 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807071656.MAA02582@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:56:50 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199807070115.SAA14806@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 6, 98 06:15:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 693 Lines: 17 Tom Holub wrote: > Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > > Uh, no, that's just dumb. Shift-f is for carrying armies. Are there > > any armies in hockey? Shift-e makes sense, but you don't have it > > remapped in your macros? > What macros? Oh, I see, you want me to spend half an hour poking through > lousy manuals trying to figure out how to set things up. I meant it looks like you're not formatting dist.help (shift-e) to something reasonable for hockey, like you do for other RCD's. You didn't mention it in your list. Anyways, the whole point is that you use RCD's in a non-standard way. Why are you sedning a Rf++ RCD when you should be sending a "crippled" RCD? -Jeff From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 10:58:05 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19256 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id NAA06598 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id NAA06586 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id KAA07351; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807071723.KAA07351@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807071656.MAA02582@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> from Jeffrey Nowakowski at "Jul 7, 98 12:56:50 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1552 Lines: 32 Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > > > Uh, no, that's just dumb. Shift-f is for carrying armies. Are there > > > any armies in hockey? Shift-e makes sense, but you don't have it > > > remapped in your macros? > > > What macros? Oh, I see, you want me to spend half an hour poking through > > lousy manuals trying to figure out how to set things up. > > I meant it looks like you're not formatting dist.help (shift-e) to > something reasonable for hockey, like you do for other RCD's. You > didn't mention it in your list. > > Anyways, the whole point is that you use RCD's in a non-standard way. > Why are you sedning a Rf++ RCD when you should be sending a "crippled" RCD? Because I use the Rf++ RCD the same way I do the "crippled" message in hockey, and it's on the same key, and I'm not going to go looking through the documentation to figure out which of the 15-too-many RCD's is the "right" one. Similarly, I use the shift-F message as informational to my team, both in normal netrek and hockey, so that's what I use. To be honest, this wasn't a problem when I was using BRMH, because I was getting what I consider to be the correct behavior, which is that people who do not have a particular RCD defined get my version. Someone said that BRMH wasn't actually sending things as RCD's, so maybe it's just that the implementation of RCD's is incredibly stupid and I have not had to deal with it up to this point, since I'm now at least temporarily forced to use COW. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 12:37:52 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19838 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id PAA10170 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id PAA10166 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19809 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:30:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807071930.MAA19809@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:30:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807071723.KAA07351@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 10:23:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1708 Lines: 51 Tom Holub wrote: > Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > > Anyways, the whole point is that you use RCD's in a non-standard way. > > Why are you sedning a Rf++ RCD when you should be sending a "crippled" RCD? > > Because I use the Rf++ RCD the same way I do the "crippled" message in > hockey, and it's on the same key, and I'm not going to go looking through > the documentation to figure out which of the 15-too-many RCD's is the > "right" one. > > Similarly, I use the shift-F message as informational to my team, both in > normal netrek and hockey, so that's what I use. Then I guarantee to you that NOBODY is getting the message you intend in either bronco or hockey. They're called RECEIVER configurable distresses, not SENDER configurable distresses. > To be honest, this wasn't a problem when I was using BRMH, Which doesn't implement RCDs correctly. > because I was getting what I consider to be the correct behavior, And you happen to be in the minority. > which is that people who do not have a particular RCD defined get my > version. No, they were always getting your version. > so maybe it's just that the implementation of RCD's is incredibly > stupid No, its actually quite well thought out. Again, refer to the 'R' in RCD. If you want me to see what you wrote, use a macro or the correct distress. > and I have not had to deal with > it up to this point, since I'm now at least temporarily forced to use COW. Which implements RCDs correctly. If anything, consider this analogy: We all speak English only, and you're speaking in French. We have no way to learn French. If you want us to understand your messages, isn't it time you learned English? --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 14:03:24 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20215 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id QAA13186 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id QAA13170 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id NAA27787; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:57:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807072057.NAA27787@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807071930.MAA19809@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at "Jul 7, 98 12:30:35 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 726 Lines: 20 Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > > and I have not had to deal with > > it up to this point, since I'm now at least temporarily forced to use COW. > > Which implements RCDs correctly. "correctly" is a matter of opinion. In my opinion--and really, it's the only defensible position--if a receiver HAS NOT configured a particular RCD, he should she what the SENDER configured. Obviously if a receiver HAS configured it, he should see what he's configured. > If anything, consider this analogy: We all speak English only, and > you're speaking in French. We have no way to learn French. If you > want us to understand your messages, isn't it time you learned > English? Idiot. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 14:57:41 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20425 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id RAA14988 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (root@amber.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.51]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id RAA14984 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (jeffno@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.111]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA21267 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Nowakowski Received: (from jeffno@localhost) by blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA03045 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807072154.RAA03045@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:43 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199807072057.NAA27787@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 01:57:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 904 Lines: 20 Tom Holub wrote: > "correctly" is a matter of opinion. In my opinion--and really, it's the > only defensible position--if a receiver HAS NOT configured a particular > RCD, he should she what the SENDER configured. Obviously if a receiver > HAS configured it, he should see what he's configured. No. For one, there are reasonable defaults for all the RCD's. Your RCD definition shouldn't override these. Secondly, even if RCD's were implemented your way, it wouldn't help. You choose to use meaningless RCD's to say something. Using the same logic, if somebody else does the same thing using the same RCD, then he will get some random meaning having nothing to do with your original meaning. Either use RCD's correctly or use plain old macros. By the way, we were all on the hockey pickup server and everybody seemed to agree you were making an ass of yourself. -Jeff (specter) From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 15:36:55 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20699 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id SAA16077 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id SAA16067 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id PAA06908; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807072233.PAA06908@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807072154.RAA03045@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> from Jeffrey Nowakowski at "Jul 7, 98 05:54:43 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1013 Lines: 22 Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > "correctly" is a matter of opinion. In my opinion--and really, it's the > > only defensible position--if a receiver HAS NOT configured a particular > > RCD, he should she what the SENDER configured. Obviously if a receiver > > HAS configured it, he should see what he's configured. > > No. For one, there are reasonable defaults for all the RCD's. Your > RCD definition shouldn't override these. Really, is that why there's a great "I'M OPEN!" RCD? > Secondly, even if RCD's were implemented your way, it wouldn't help. > You choose to use meaningless RCD's to say something. Using the same > logic, if somebody else does the same thing using the same RCD, then > he will get some random meaning having nothing to do with your > original meaning. I don't see what's so complicated about what I'm doing. I'm using the keys the same way they're used in normal netrek. The problem is that RCD's are overspecialized and overdefined. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 16:18:45 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20952 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA17047 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (root@amber.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.51]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA17043 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (jeffno@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.111]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA23743 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:47:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Nowakowski Received: (from jeffno@localhost) by blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA03150 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807072247.SAA03150@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:47:52 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199807072233.PAA06908@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 03:33:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1260 Lines: 33 Tom Holub wrote: > Message-Id: <199807072233.PAA06908@shell3.ba.best.com> > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey > In-Reply-To: <199807072154.RAA03045@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> from Jeffrey Nowakowski at "Jul 7, 98 05:54:43 pm" > To: hockey@lists.panix.com > Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) > Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com > > Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > > No. For one, there are reasonable defaults for all the RCD's. Your > > RCD definition shouldn't override these. > > Really, is that why there's a great "I'M OPEN!" RCD? Since there is no "I'm open" RCD, use a regular macro instead. If it takes you half an hour of looking through the manuals, then that's pretty sad. > I don't see what's so complicated about what I'm doing. I'm using the > keys the same way they're used in normal netrek. The problem is that > RCD's are overspecialized and overdefined. No, the problem is you're using RCD's when you shouldn't be, and using the wrong ones when you should be. -Jeff (specter) From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 16:28:28 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21049 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA17254 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA17250 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id QAA28565; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807072327.QAA28565@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807072247.SAA03150@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> from Jeffrey Nowakowski at "Jul 7, 98 06:47:52 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 688 Lines: 18 Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > > > Jeffrey Nowakowski writes: > > > No. For one, there are reasonable defaults for all the RCD's. Your > > > RCD definition shouldn't override these. > > > > Really, is that why there's a great "I'M OPEN!" RCD? > > Since there is no "I'm open" RCD, use a regular macro instead. If it > takes you half an hour of looking through the manuals, then that's > pretty sad. Let me make this clear: I have a limited amount of time for netrek, and I have absolutely no interest in spending *any* of that time finding manuals and deciphering them. I expect that's true of the vast majority of the netrek population. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 18:11:28 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21694 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id VAA19519 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amber.ccs.neu.edu (root@amber.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.51]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id VAA19515 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (jeffno@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu [129.10.116.111]) by amber.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA28186 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:10:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeffrey Nowakowski Received: (from jeffno@localhost) by blackburn.ccs.neu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA03400 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807080109.VAA03400@blackburn.ccs.neu.edu> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:09:59 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199807072327.QAA28565@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 04:27:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 775 Lines: 16 Tom Holub wrote: > Let me make this clear: I have a limited amount of time for netrek, and > I have absolutely no interest in spending *any* of that time finding > manuals and deciphering them. I expect that's true of the vast majority > of the netrek population. I find this ironic coming from the maintainer of the FAQs and the FOCS. What's even more ironic is that since you already have macros that aren't standard, you must have spent some time putting them in. If you can't spend 5 minutes figuring out how to play the game (yes, that's how long it took me to get the COW doc and find out how macros worked), then you shouldn't play. The docs are well written and require no deciphiring. If you'd bother to look, you'd see that. -Jeff (specter) From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 12:24:20 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02550 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id PAA24269 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell15.ba.best.com (root@shell15.ba.best.com [206.184.139.147]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id PAA24265 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from von@localhost) by shell15.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id LAA21164; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Von Worley Message-Id: <199807091843.LAA21164@shell15.ba.best.com> To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807072057.NAA27787@shell3.ba.best.com> Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1957 Lines: 50 Tom says: > "correctly" is a matter of opinion. In my opinion--and really, it's the > only defensible position--if a receiver HAS NOT configured a particular > RCD, he should she what the SENDER configured. Obviously if a receiver > HAS configured it, he should see what he's configured. No, you are wrong. The system you propose above would break in a pickup situation. Let's assume, for example, you use the 'save_planet' RCD to indicate that you are 'open'. In your system, people that haven't defined the RCD see your 'open' macro. Groovy. The problem is, that people that _have_ defined the RCD have assumed, by reading the RCD docs, that when somebody issues the 'save_planet' RCD, they want someone to save the indicated planet (or whatever it is defined to mean). Thus, they see a 'save planet' macro formatted in their style, which makes no sense. After receiving a 10 or 15 more of the 'save planet' macros, they assume you are a spaz/idiot and ignore you. Furthermore, attempting to assign a new meaning to an RCD type only works if all recipients cooperate. This will work in a controlled team setting, such as ICM. This will not work in a pickup setting, where you are lucky if players read the motd, much less conform to some obscure, counter-intuitive RCD remapping convention. It should be obvious that you should use the RCD which by its definition is intended to convey the type of information most similar to what you want to say. For example, if you are crippled, you should use the 'crippled' RCD to say so. This will allow everyone to understand you. If no RCD type corresponds to what you want to say, you should use a normal macro. This will allow everyone to understand you. Tom says: > Idiot. > -Tom mdm says: > Tom's views may not coincide with your own, but he's certainly > not an idiot. Based upon Tom's rabid and senseless attempts to champion his defenseless position, I'm not sure if I agree. Steve From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 15:07:32 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20485 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id SAA15271 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id SAA15267 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (muckrake@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA16432 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:04:11 -0700 Received: (from muckrake@localhost) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) id PAA00509 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:04:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Brunner" Message-Id: <199807072204.PAA00509@saul1.u.washington.edu> To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 223 Lines: 7 Why do you have to constantly insult people, Tom? Carlos makes some good points. Why should everyone else have to alter the way they play just to fall in line with the way you think things ought to be? --JB aka Left Wing From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 16:27:28 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21028 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA17230 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA17226 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id QAA27840; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:26:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807072326.QAA27840@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807072204.PAA00509@saul1.u.washington.edu> from "J. Brunner" at "Jul 7, 98 03:04:11 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 412 Lines: 11 J. Brunner writes: > Why do you have to constantly insult people, Tom? > > Carlos makes some good points. Why should everyone else have to alter > the way they play just to fall in line with the way you think things > ought to be? Why should the receiver of a receiver-configurable distress have to configure his RCD's to be the way they want them to be? Gee, that would seem to be the whole point, eh? -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 21:31:07 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22474 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id AAA25247 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (bridges@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU [192.12.69.230]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id AAA25242 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bridges@localhost) by blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.8.7/8.7.3) id VAA02197 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:52 -0700 From: "Patrick G. Bridges" Message-Id: <199807080429.VAA02197@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:52 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199807072326.QAA27840@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 04:26:15 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 638 Lines: 17 > > J. Brunner writes: > > Why do you have to constantly insult people, Tom? > > > > Carlos makes some good points. Why should everyone else have to alter > > the way they play just to fall in line with the way you think things > > ought to be? > > Why should the receiver of a receiver-configurable distress have to > configure his RCD's to be the way they want them to be? Gee, that would > seem to be the whole point, eh? A better question is: Why should the receiver of a receiver-configurable distress have to configure his RCD's to be the way Tom wants them to be? Gee, that would seem to be contrary to the whole point, eh? From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 21:45:38 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22542 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id AAA25478 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id AAA25465 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA22537 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:45:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807080445.VAA22537@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:45:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807080429.VAA02197@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> from "Patrick G. Bridges" at Jul 7, 98 09:29:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 247 Lines: 9 > > Why should the receiver of a receiver-configurable distress have to > configure his RCD's to be the way Tom wants them to be? Gee, that would > seem to be contrary to the whole point, eh? > *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 22:52:10 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA22755 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id BAA26505 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id BAA26501 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id WAA02399; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:48:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807080548.WAA02399@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807080429.VAA02197@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> from "Patrick G. Bridges" at "Jul 7, 98 09:29:52 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 964 Lines: 24 Patrick G. Bridges writes: > > > > J. Brunner writes: > > > Why do you have to constantly insult people, Tom? > > > > > > Carlos makes some good points. Why should everyone else have to alter > > > the way they play just to fall in line with the way you think things > > > ought to be? > > > > Why should the receiver of a receiver-configurable distress have to > > configure his RCD's to be the way they want them to be? Gee, that would > > seem to be the whole point, eh? > > A better question is: > > Why should the receiver of a receiver-configurable distress have to > configure his RCD's to be the way Tom wants them to be? Gee, that would > seem to be contrary to the whole point, eh? He doesn't have to configure them the way I want them to be, he has to configure them the way HE wants them to be. There is absolutely no utility in having a "carrying armies" RCD in hockey, so make it something useful, since it's one of the default keys. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 23:23:22 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22873 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id CAA27033 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id CAA27029 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22869 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:22:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807080622.XAA22869@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:22:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807080548.WAA02399@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 7, 98 10:48:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1120 Lines: 30 > > He doesn't have to configure them the way I want them to be, he has to > configure them the way HE wants them to be. There is absolutely no > utility in having a "carrying armies" RCD in hockey, so make it something > useful, since it's one of the default keys. Ok, you want to make it a default, useful, key, and we want you to use a sensible distress, both are valid concerns. I'll save you some manual reading and us some heartache, and we'll come up with a compromise. It should take you 5 seconds. If you want, send me your .xtrekrc, I'll edit it, and send it back to you. This is a sincere offer. unbelver@brain.jpl.nasa.gov or unbelver@earthlink.net Change your dist.carrying (your status distress) from: dist.carrying: to: dist.F.help: Change your dist.pickup (your crippled distress) from: dist.pickup: to: dist.9.cripple: and I can't help you on the "I'm open" other then to suggest a macro. This way, you get your keys, and we get the right distress, and hey! you even see our distresses in your format. --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 23:30:36 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22920 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id CAA27135 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id CAA27129 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22916 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:30:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807080630.XAA22916@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:30:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807080622.XAA22869@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at Jul 7, 98 11:22:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 692 Lines: 24 Oops, I goofed, it should be like below. (forgot the caret) > Change your dist.carrying (your status distress) > from: dist.carrying: > to: dist.F.help: > > Change your dist.pickup (your crippled distress) > from: dist.pickup: > to: dist.^9.cripple: > > and I can't help you on the "I'm open" other then to suggest a macro. Actually, yes I can Change your dist.save_planet (your "I'm open" distres) from: dist.save_planet: to: mac.^1.T: singleMacro: ^1 There. Sorry about the goof. (singleMacro makes it so you don't have to type your macro key first) --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Wed Jul 8 19:58:45 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28213 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id WAA29321 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id WAA29317 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from captain.ici.net (d-ma-mansfield-48.ici.net [207.180.8.57]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20039 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A430EE.F4399FEF@ici.net> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:54:41 -0400 From: Ryan Turcotte Organization: Internet Connection Customer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199807080630.XAA22916@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 990 Lines: 34 Carlos Y. Villalpando wrote: > Oops, I goofed, it should be like below. (forgot the caret) > > > Change your dist.carrying (your status distress) > > from: dist.carrying: > > to: dist.F.help: > > > > Change your dist.pickup (your crippled distress) > > from: dist.pickup: > > to: dist.^9.cripple: > > > > and I can't help you on the "I'm open" other then to suggest a > macro. > > Actually, yes I can > > Change your dist.save_planet (your "I'm open" distres) > > from: dist.save_planet: > to: mac.^1.T: > singleMacro: ^1 > > There. Sorry about the goof. (singleMacro makes it so you don't have > > to type your macro key first) > > --Carlos V. I think you should just leave the Idiot be, he doesnt know what the heck hes talking about. Maybe when hes on we should use our Save Planet RCD so he and only he gets the message that we're OPEN! Good idea aie? Clayboy From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 04:11:18 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29906 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id HAA09581 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mccsun1.MIT.EDU (MCCSUN1.MIT.EDU [18.70.1.24]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id HAA09577 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sdfranks@localhost) by mccsun1.MIT.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.12) id HAA19778; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807091106.HAA19778@mccsun1.MIT.EDU> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:54:41 EDT." <35A430EE.F4399FEF@ici.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:06:27 EDT From: Steve Franks Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1050 Lines: 24 Clayboy wrote: > I think you should just leave the Idiot be, he doesnt know what the > heck hes talking about. Maybe when hes on we should use our Save Planet > RCD so he and only he gets the message that we're OPEN! Good idea aie? Clayboy, don't be a fucking twink. Everyone has valid points in the discussion. If you think about it, Tom's way is a better way as long as everyone uses the same convention, which is what Ken is trying to find out. Posts of this sort are counterproductive and will start a baseless flame war which you will lose. Maybe we just need to make this an RCD mac.l.A:% ___ _ mac.l.A:% | / |\/|o ______ ___ _ _ ____ _______ __ mac.l.A:% _|_\_| |o _ | _ \ \ / / \ | | / \ / ___|_ _\ \ / / mac.l.A: | || |___ __| |_____ _ _| | | \ V /| \| | / _ \ \___ \ | | \ V / mac.L.A: | __ / _ \/ _| / / -_) || | |_| || | | |\ |/ ___ \ ___) || | | | mac.L.A: |_||_\___/\__|_\_\___|\_, |____/ |_| |_| \_/_/ \_\____/ |_| |_| mac.L.A:% |__/ --Steve From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 07:25:23 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00564 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id KAA13621 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (bridges@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU [192.12.69.230]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id KAA13616 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bridges@localhost) by blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA04551 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:21:18 -0700 From: "Patrick G. Bridges" Message-Id: <199807091421.HAA04551@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:21:18 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199807091106.HAA19778@mccsun1.MIT.EDU> from "Steve Franks" at Jul 9, 98 07:06:27 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 265 Lines: 4 Okay, while we're on the subject of configuratoni files, is there an easy way to make COW change configurations (like RCDs and macros) based on which server you connect to? I play bronco only occasionally, but I'd like to not have to edit my config files to do so. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 08:07:57 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00707 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id LAA15015 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hep01.phys.ufl.edu (hep01.phys.ufl.edu [128.227.64.81]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id LAA15006 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (mdm@localhost) by hep01.phys.ufl.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04005 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:03:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: hep01.phys.ufl.edu: mdm owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:03:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark David Moores To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <35A430EE.F4399FEF@ici.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 359 Lines: 12 Clayboy wrote:- > I think you should just leave the Idiot be, he doesnt know what the > heck hes talking about. Maybe when hes on we should use our Save Planet Gentlemen, please keep this discussion civil. Tom's views may not coincide with your own, but he's certainly not an idiot. Sorry for the off topic post. Mark Moores YaHedNaMesh From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Sat Jul 18 09:29:54 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22931 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA02025 for hockey-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA02021 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id JAA25608; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807181628.JAA25608@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-Reply-To: <199807080622.XAA22869@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at "Jul 7, 98 11:22:42 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1236 Lines: 31 Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > > > > He doesn't have to configure them the way I want them to be, he has to > > configure them the way HE wants them to be. There is absolutely no > > utility in having a "carrying armies" RCD in hockey, so make it something > > useful, since it's one of the default keys. > > Ok, you want to make it a default, useful, key, and we want you to use > a sensible distress, both are valid concerns. > > I'll save you some manual reading and us some heartache, and we'll > come up with a compromise. It should take you 5 seconds. If you > want, send me your .xtrekrc, I'll edit it, and send it back to you. > This is a sincere offer. unbelver@brain.jpl.nasa.gov or > unbelver@earthlink.net > > Change your dist.carrying (your status distress) > from: dist.carrying: > to: dist.F.help: > > Change your dist.pickup (your crippled distress) > from: dist.pickup: > to: dist.9.cripple: > > and I can't help you on the "I'm open" other then to suggest a macro. > > This way, you get your keys, and we get the right distress, and hey! > you even see our distresses in your format. I tried this, and none of them worked. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 27 23:45:34 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA23498 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id CAA19561 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id CAA19557 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA23481 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807280643.XAA23481@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Tom was right about something (was Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey) To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:43:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807181628.JAA25608@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 18, 98 09:28:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 757 Lines: 28 Tom Holub wrote: > Carlos Y. Villalpando writes: > > > > Ok, you want to make it a default, useful, key, and we want you to use > > a sensible distress, both are valid concerns. > > [snipped were my .xtrekrc suggestions for his distresses] > > I tried this, and none of them worked. You're right. I don't know why they don't work. I couldn't get different key bindings to work with COW 2.xx and have yet to try COW 3. I was, however, able to make them work as singleMacros on the keybindings you used. example: mac.^1.T: I'm OPEN! (%T%c) singleMacro: ^1 That kills the RCDs, but since you don't think bandwidth is an issue, it doesn't matter. --Carlos V. P.S. I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to wind up on r.g.n. *grin* From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 28 07:35:46 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24907 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id KAA28409 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (bridges@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU [192.12.69.230]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id KAA28392 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bridges@localhost) by blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.8.7/8.7.3) id HAA05790 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:34:24 -0700 From: "Patrick G. Bridges" Message-Id: <199807281434.HAA05790@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> Subject: Re: Tom was right about something (was Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey) To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:34:24 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199807280643.XAA23481@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> from "Carlos Y. Villalpando" at Jul 27, 98 11:43:55 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 143 Lines: 4 > P.S. I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to wind > up on r.g.n. *grin* I'm glad it ended up there. I don't read r.g.n. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 18:41:32 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21821 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id VAA20268 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with SMTP id VAA20264 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell1.shore.net (northshore.shore.net) [192.233.85.1] (mirror) by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0ytjDs-0007OK-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:40:40 -0400 Received: (from mirror@localhost) by northshore.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA19252 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:39:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ken. Hanson" Message-Id: <199807080139.VAA19252@northshore.shore.net> Subject: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs To: hockey@lists.panix.com (Hockey List) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:39:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1747 Lines: 37 Greetings, Given the current noise on the list about RCDs, I think it is time to step in with something constructive. What I would like is for people to send me the RCDs that they have configured for hockey; the actual lines from your .rc files would be nice, along with what you use this RCD for when you send it ("Here is my 'taking' RCD, and I send it when I am going to go get a Coke and will be away from the keyboard for 5 minutes", ...). I will collect the RCDs, figure out what the consensus appears to be for which are used in hockey and what people want them to mean, and will add another section to TAoP with the "standard" RCD meanings. I will also include a section with what appear to be the best actual RCD .rc lines from what I received so new players can just drop them into their own .rc file to get started quickly; they can tinker with how they want to change the info later if they want to spend the extra time. My suspicion is that only a very small number of RCDs will have any general consensus applied to them in hockey, but I could be mistaken. Any which appear to have "split meanings" (i.e. two different groups have different interpretations of a particular distress) I will bring to the list here and let you guys fight for which meaning gets final "official" recognition in TAoP. Please email to ken@mirrorlab.org. Be careful; I believe that this list is set up so that replies are sent to the whole list, not just me, and I see no reason to flood the whole list at this time. I will summarize in about a week or so. Mirrorshade -- / Ken. Hanson, Ph.D. / Mirror Laboratories From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 20:24:31 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA22276 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id XAA22214 for hockey-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id XAA22207 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from captain.ici.net (d-ma-mansfield-63.ici.net [207.180.8.72]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA12757 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A2E627.45593A48@ici.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:23:22 -0400 From: Ryan Turcotte Organization: Internet Connection Customer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199807080139.VAA19252@northshore.shore.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 4363 Lines: 106 Ken. Hanson wrote: > Greetings, > > Given the current noise on the list about RCDs, I think > it is time to step in with something constructive. What > I would like is for people to send me the RCDs that they have > configured for hockey; the actual lines from your .rc files > would be nice, along with what you use this RCD for when > you send it ("Here is my 'taking' RCD, and I send it when > I am going to go get a Coke and will be away from the keyboard > for 5 minutes", ...). > > I will collect the RCDs, figure out what the consensus appears > to be for which are used in hockey and what people want them to > mean, and will add another section to TAoP with the "standard" > RCD meanings. I will also include a section with what appear to > be the best actual RCD .rc lines from what I received so new players > can just drop them into their own .rc file to get started quickly; > they can tinker with how they want to change the info later if they > want to spend the extra time. > > My suspicion is that only a very small number of RCDs will > have any general consensus applied to them in hockey, but I > could be mistaken. Any which appear to have "split meanings" > (i.e. two different groups have different interpretations of > a particular distress) I will bring to the list here and let you guys > fight for which meaning gets final "official" recognition in TAoP. > > Please email to ken@mirrorlab.org. Be careful; I believe that > this list is set up so that replies are sent to the whole list, > not just me, and I see no reason to flood the whole list at this time. > > I will summarize in about a week or so. > > Mirrorshade > -- > / Ken. Hanson, Ph.D. > / Mirror Laboratories I know this would be a very good idea probably. But, the only real reason we have a very different reconigtion is because of Tom Holub's message how he stated his different RCDs - definetly what stirred a lot of argument. Here it is - **** We do not want to add more RCD's; there are way the fuck too many already. What we want is for people to have intelligent defaults in their hockeyrc's for the shift-E and shift-F macros. I don't care what RCD's those are, those are the ones that make the most sense to use, because they require the least effort on everyone's part. Even newbies probably know about shift-E and shift-F. For the record, here are my hockey RCD's: # Receiver Configurable Distress Calls # default keystroke is ^1 dist.save_planet: %T%c->%O I'm OPEN! %fF,%dD,%sS (in %S) # # default keystroke is F dist.carrying: %i (%S) %?%f>35%{fuel(%f%%)%!%?%f>15%{LOW fuel(%f%%)%!NO FUEL(%f%%)%}%} %?%d<20%{%!%?%d<40%{dam(%d%%)%!%?%d<60%{MED dam(%d%%)%!%?%d<85%{HEAVY dam(%d%%)%!NASTY DAM(%d%%)%}%}%}%} %?%s>75%{%!%?%s>50%{shd(%s%%)%!LOW shd(%s%%)%}%} # # default keystroke is ^9 dist.pickup: %T%c->%O %h crippled *** Basically, heres what started it, he is using his save planet distress for saying I'm open. He is using his Carrying distress to say he has No Fuel, hes crippled ext. And he is using his Pickup distress to say so and so is crippled. Now, what we have currented debating is that When you send the RCD, what Tom intends his teammates to see is - Doosh! (DD) Low fuel 15% Heavy dam 85% and No shields 5% (example) -. Now, what his teammates would see is - Carrying 0 armies or whatever he has set. Basically, people have already said this before and i'm not going into deep detail My personally experience is that hitting Shift can hamper your playing (i used to do shift - 5 for hitting % for maxwarp but now i transferred to r for maxwarp and i have 5 times faster response) basically, its easier to hit something like (what i have set for macros) ` twice. then hitting Shift - e. Wouldnt you agree? I also have it set so if i hit ` 3 times instead of 2, i hit r for maxwarp which is what ship i use button? Aye, useful huh? Tom was also saying hit didnt have much time to make macros, but RCDs are almost as complex (as in his regular distresss message) then Macros, compare his and data's and try to find some more complexity then that. Sure it might be more complex but just read the Macros section for 5 minutes and find the hell out. Thank, you, I hope i made my point. Clayboy From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Tue Jul 7 21:52:22 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22577 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id AAA25583 for hockey-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brain.jpl.nasa.gov (brain.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.33.188]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id AAA25579 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from unbelver@localhost) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA22570 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:51:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carlos Y. Villalpando" Message-Id: <199807080451.VAA22570@brain.jpl.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:51:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199807080139.VAA19252@northshore.shore.net> from "Ken. Hanson" at Jul 7, 98 09:39:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 402 Lines: 13 Here's my vote: (deliberately public) If you're deviating from the standard meaning of the RCD, use a macro. Don't change the meaning of the RCD. How many newbies read TAoTP? If the OVERWHELMING consensus is to use non standard definitions, and EVERYBODY uses them (without deviation), I'll grudgingly agree to use them too, but that will make new player infusion that much harder. --Carlos V. From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 08:47:54 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00938 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id LAA16285 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807091543.LAA16285@dont.panix.com> From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:24:36 -0400 Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 3155 Lines: 55 I do not believe hockey RCDs are a very good idea. With this baffling noise level on this list about these things, I think we need to, one more time, step back and think about it. The purpose of RCDs is so that players can see "distress" (we all know they all are not strictly distresses, but it is the terminology used) messages in the format they wish. That the player can see them how they like is an advantage over default distresses and macros. In addition, distresses save bandwith over macros. Now in order for RCDs to be of any use at all. EVERYONE, yes, E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E must agree as to a meaning for a message type. If you decide to use 'F,' which everyone else expects to be an armies carried message, for telling people you are open, sending them your ping stats, or a really nice recipe for ginger snaps, won't work. THIS IS EXPECTED AND PROPER BEHAVIOR. Players who have not configured their own distresses will receive the default one which carries the essential information that the distress was created for. Players who have an RCD see the info the way they want. What the sender has set for his RCD is utterly irrelevant. (Tom: If you want to send players with no RCD configured /your/ RCD, notice that it now takes just as much bandwidth as a macro too.) Now, why aren't these good for hockey? Because everyone is using a client built for Bronco. All of the RCDs (and default distresses) are designed for use in Bronco. Thus, planet taking, army carrying, escorts, bombing, etc., etc., the majority of the messages are of little to no use in Netrek Hockey. So, why don't we all here on the Hockey List redefine RCDs? Well, are we going to rewrite client codes to take different message types? Do we expect all players new, old, and in between to use different Bronco and Hockey clients? I think the easy answer to both is, 'No.' So, let's use the Bronco RCDs names but use 'em for other stuff. Well, the second from above still comes into play, do we expect all players new, old, and in between to rewrite all of their RCDs to match? Think about the Newbie or Oldbie returning from absence who looks at the message board and all he sees are armies carried messages and planet take calls. Do we even expect all of the hard-core hockey players to do it? I bet not everyone on this lists has separate .xtrekrcs and .hockeyrcs. If Tom doesn't have the time to convert a couple of RCDs to macros (something that would take 1/10th the time he's spent reading and replying to this thread, and thanks Carlos for posting the 'solutions' for him), everyone else has time to rewrite all of the RCDs? The effort players would need to put into converting to new RCDs combined with the wall it puts up for the newbies to get over makes Hockey RCDs not worthwhile... Oh, yeah, IMHO. As has been said many times, good ol' macros seem to be the easiest way to go. Especially since this is the way it has always been done to this point. Sure, use the RCDs that cross over from Bronco to Hockey, general distress, cripple call, but macros for hockey specific messaging. -- Crist J. Clark havok@us.netrek.org From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 09:51:06 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01404 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA18585 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA18580 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id JAA09157; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:47:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807091647.JAA09157@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807091543.LAA16285@dont.panix.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at "Jul 9, 98 11:24:36 am" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 941 Lines: 19 Crist J. Clark writes: > the way they want. What the sender has set for his RCD is > utterly irrelevant. (Tom: If you want to send players with no > RCD configured /your/ RCD, notice that it now takes just as much > bandwidth as a macro too.) Bandwidth is so incredibly irrelevant to netrek play that I don't see why it was even brought up as an issue. It's the right way for RCD's to work, and I'm going to mail vanilla-l about fixing them. > The effort players would need to put into converting to new RCDs > combined with the wall it puts up for the newbies to get over makes > Hockey RCDs not worthwhile... Oh, yeah, IMHO. As has been said many > times, good ol' macros seem to be the easiest way to go. Especially > since this is the way it has always been done to this point. ICM has been using RCD's forever. That is, for those of you not keeping track, the dominant team and still-reigning INHL champion In Cold Milk. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 10:12:55 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01583 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id NAA19588 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (root@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU [192.12.69.230]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id NAA19577 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bridges@localhost) by blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA04677 for hockey@lists.panix.com; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:52:56 -0700 From: "Patrick G. Bridges" Message-Id: <199807091652.JAA04677@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:52:56 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199807091647.JAA09157@shell3.ba.best.com> from "Tom Holub" at Jul 9, 98 09:47:55 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1244 Lines: 29 > > Crist J. Clark writes: > > the way they want. What the sender has set for his RCD is > > utterly irrelevant. (Tom: If you want to send players with no > > RCD configured /your/ RCD, notice that it now takes just as much > > bandwidth as a macro too.) > > Bandwidth is so incredibly irrelevant to netrek play that I don't see why > it was even brought up as an issue. It's the right way for RCD's to work, > and I'm going to mail vanilla-l about fixing them. That would actually be fairly nice. > > > The effort players would need to put into converting to new RCDs > > combined with the wall it puts up for the newbies to get over makes > > Hockey RCDs not worthwhile... Oh, yeah, IMHO. As has been said many > > times, good ol' macros seem to be the easiest way to go. Especially > > since this is the way it has always been done to this point. > > ICM has been using RCD's forever. That is, for those of you not keeping > track, the dominant team and still-reigning INHL champion In Cold Milk. > -Tom Notice, however, that the fact that ICM uses RCDs doesn't mean that's the reason they won... Still, noone has addressed my question - how do I have seperate bronco and hockey RCDs mapped to the same distresses? -Patrick From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 10:57:13 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02051 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id NAA21121 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id NAA21113 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id KAA05051; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:53:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807091753.KAA05051@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807091652.JAA04677@blackoak.CS.Arizona.EDU> from "Patrick G. Bridges" at "Jul 9, 98 09:52:56 am" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 331 Lines: 8 Patrick G. Bridges writes: > > > Notice, however, that the fact that ICM uses RCDs doesn't mean that's the > reason they won... Still, noone has addressed my question - how do I have > seperate bronco and hockey RCDs mapped to the same distresses? I use two different rc files with the -r option when starting the client. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 15:29:22 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03846 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id SAA00853 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807092226.SAA00853@dont.panix.com> From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Cc: "Crist J. Clark" Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:22:19 -0400 Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1250 Lines: 28 ---------- > From: Tom Holub > To: hockey@lists.panix.com > Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 12:47 > > Crist J. Clark writes: > > the way they want. What the sender has set for his RCD is > > utterly irrelevant. (Tom: If you want to send players with no > > RCD configured /your/ RCD, notice that it now takes just as much > > bandwidth as a macro too.) > > Bandwidth is so incredibly irrelevant to netrek play that I don't see why > it was even brought up as an issue. It's the right way for RCD's to work, > and I'm going to mail vanilla-l about fixing them. No, no, no, no. It is /not/ the right way. One of the nice things about RCDs is I don't have to look at other player's 5T00P1D macros. I don't want to see exactly what other players want, I want to see what /I/ want to; it's the whole idea. And, in a buncha cases, the default messages are perfectly fine with me. I want the defaults; I don't want what the other guy thinks I should see. If I wanted to see something else, /I'd/ change my RCD accordingly. If you want the other players to see what /you/ want them to, use a macro. -- Crist J. Clark havok@us.netrek.org From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 16:17:15 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04036 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA02166 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA02162 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id QAA13698; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:13:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807092313.QAA13698@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807092226.SAA00853@dont.panix.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at "Jul 9, 98 02:22:19 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com, cjclark@alum.mit.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 776 Lines: 22 Crist J. Clark writes: > > No, no, no, no. It is /not/ the right way. One of the nice things about > RCDs is I don't have to look at other player's 5T00P1D macros. I don't > want to see exactly what other players want, I want to see what /I/ want > to; it's the whole idea. So you define an RCD! > And, in a buncha cases, the default messages are > perfectly fine with me. So you define the default RCD! >I want the defaults; I don't want what the other > guy thinks I should see. If I wanted to see something else, /I'd/ change > my RCD accordingly. If you want the other players to see what /you/ want > them to, use a macro. Wait, you say you want people to use RCD's, so you can see what you want to see, and then you tell them to use macros, so you can't? -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 17:54:11 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04631 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id UAA04991 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807100052.UAA04991@dont.panix.com> From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:44:21 -0400 Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1997 Lines: 52 > From: Tom Holub > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 19:13 > > Crist J. Clark writes: > > And, in a buncha cases, the default messages are > > perfectly fine with me. > > So you define the default RCD! You expect every player to define /all/ of the zillion RCDs as the defaults to prevent other players' formats from getting sent to you? > >I want the defaults; I don't want what the other > > guy thinks I should see. If I wanted to see something else, /I'd/ change > > my RCD accordingly. If you want the other players to see what /you/ want > > them to, use a macro. > > Wait, you say you want people to use RCD's, so you can see what you want to > see, and then you tell them to use macros, so you can't? Now, that's not what I mean. I mean when you want them to see something that doesn't fit into one of the given RCDs, you use a macro. Say that in addition to using the RCDs calling for escorts and announcing the target planet, you'd like to tell your buddies from which side you plan on coming into the planet. That doesn't fit any RCD. You can make up a inoffensive macro that tells your buddies the direction you plan to come in on. Instead of insisting that you should be able to force the message about the direction of the take to them through some RCD that's named for some other purpose, you do the macro. Thus it is with Netrek Hockey. There are a zillion things you'd like to tell your buddies that don't have an RCD. So... Use a macro! (BTW, I thought is was in my long mail that was my first, and probably misguided, attempt to step in on this thread, but I wanted to say that IMO, that the only time it is feasible to use RCDs which are meant for other purposes is on a INHL team. Just remember to switch back when you play pickup or clue games. People will start to think that you've lost it when you keep calling base oggs on Puck. ;) -- Crist J. Clark havok@us.netrek.org From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Fri Jul 10 14:51:12 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09709 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id RAA10324 for hockey-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id RAA10317 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id OAA00983; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:49:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807102149.OAA00983@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807100052.UAA04991@dont.panix.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at "Jul 9, 98 07:44:21 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 837 Lines: 23 Crist J. Clark writes: > > From: Tom Holub > > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > > Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 19:13 > > > > Crist J. Clark writes: > > > > And, in a buncha cases, the default messages are > > > perfectly fine with me. > > > > So you define the default RCD! > > You expect every player to define /all/ of the zillion RCDs as the defaults > to prevent other players' formats from getting sent to you? If that's what he wants, yes! There are clearly too many RCD's, which I argued at the start of this whole thing, but that is precisely what you should do if you want a specific display for each one. That is the idea. I expect that most players would prefer to see what the other guy has defined. After all, he knows what he wants to say a lot more than the client designers do. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 07:09:27 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21097 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id KAA18235 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hex.de.uu.net (hex.de.uu.net [192.76.144.27]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id KAA18229 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wurz.de.uu.net (wurz.de.uu.net [193.96.65.77]:33258) by hex.de.uu.net with ESMTP (5.65+:004/3.0.2) for id PAA28801; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:58:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-zyzzy: 90% Message-Id: <199807131406.QAA08792@wurz.de.uu.net> Received: from wurz.Germany.EU.net by wurz.de.uu.net with ESMTP (5.61c:012/UUNETdeLAN-2.1a15-1.2.10) via UUNET for [mail.de.uu.net] id QAA08792; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:06:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:49:14 PDT." <199807102149.OAA00983@shell3.ba.best.com> X-Face: %y@Pd*R`Agvcq1qsnLm3)-r`72:z2z&J3bS'!r6/G%,3ilsP[Ti DQ)6F!iUOx9N-g&?-VGiYJlTBqKY6J#6;lO`dJH;4Eg\Graog[HXN!lul^n3#2HAK-vqTp9ftQvHQc I@9{4@EPi9f8=!z% Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:06:31 +0200 From: Sven Neuhaus Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 879 Lines: 19 > I expect that most players would prefer to see what the other guy > has defined. After all, he knows what he wants to say a lot more than > the client designers do. > -Tom If I wanted to see what the other person sent, I wouldn't be using RCDs. If the other person wanted me to see the message exactly as he sent it, he shouldn't be using RCDs. If the other person wants me to get a certain piece of information, he should send the appropriate RCD. It will present the information to me in a way that I am used to so I can parse it as fast as possible. What is the problem with creating more RCDs? If there's a need for a certain macro for the majority of the hockey players, then it's a good idea to create an RCD for it. That's the way the current RCDs were chosen. I would consider it highly useful if all "I'm open" messages would look the same on my client. -Sven From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 08:45:15 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21389 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id LAA21691 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id LAA21686 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id IAA24747; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807131541.IAA24747@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807131406.QAA08792@wurz.de.uu.net> from Sven Neuhaus at "Jul 13, 98 04:06:31 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1062 Lines: 30 Sven Neuhaus writes: > > I expect that most players would prefer to see what the other guy > > has defined. After all, he knows what he wants to say a lot more than > > the client designers do. > > -Tom > > If I wanted to see what the other person sent, I wouldn't be using RCDs. Uh, you're not the one using them. > If the other person wanted me to see the message exactly as he sent it, > he shouldn't be using RCDs. The other person wants to covey a certain piece of information. He is using an RCD because you may want to format it in a manner different than he does. If you have not defined a format, you should get his, because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one. > What is the problem with creating more RCDs? There are way too many now. > If there's a need for > a certain macro for the majority of the hockey players, then it's > a good idea to create an RCD for it. That's the way the current RCDs > were chosen. The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, and also were implemented poorly. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 09:04:45 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21462 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id LAA22099 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id LAA22095 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from captain.ici.net (d-ma-mansfield-59.ici.net [207.180.8.68]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04790 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AA2DCD.FF2902CB@ici.net> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:54:57 -0400 From: Ryan Turcotte Organization: Internet Connection Customer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199807131541.IAA24747@shell3.ba.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1140 Lines: 40 > > If the other person wanted me to see the message exactly as he sent > it, > > he shouldn't be using RCDs. > > The other person wants to covey a certain piece of information. He is > > using an RCD because you may want to format it in a manner different > than he does. If you have not defined a format, you should get his, > because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one. That isn't the way RCDs work. I can't believe you havent found that out yet!! > > What is the problem with creating more RCDs? > > There are way too many now. You can't create anymore anyway unless you got the whole hockey community to change their RCD formats. > > > > If there's a need for > > a certain macro for the majority of the hockey players, then it's > > a good idea to create an RCD for it. That's the way the current RCDs > > > were chosen. > > The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, and > > also were implemented poorly. > -Tom I agree but almost all the RCDs were chosen before hockey exsisted anyway. They were not implemented poorly, they were implemented so you could lower bandwith -Clayboy From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 09:20:44 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21541 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA22717 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA22713 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id JAA05605; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:09:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807131609.JAA05605@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <35AA2DCD.FF2902CB@ici.net> from Ryan Turcotte at "Jul 13, 98 11:54:57 am" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1003 Lines: 28 Ryan Turcotte writes: > > > If the other person wanted me to see the message exactly as he sent > > it, > > > he shouldn't be using RCDs. > > > > The other person wants to covey a certain piece of information. He is > > > > using an RCD because you may want to format it in a manner different > > than he does. If you have not defined a format, you should get his, > > because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one. > > That isn't the way RCDs work. I can't believe you havent found that out > yet!! It's the way they *should* work. Please keep up with me. > > The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, and > > also were implemented poorly. > > -Tom > > I agree but almost all the RCDs were chosen before hockey exsisted > anyway. > They were not implemented poorly, they were implemented so you could > lower bandwith In a game where network bandwidth is not a playability issue, it makes no sense to base design decisions on reducing bandwidth. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 05:42:06 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA20804 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id IAA15893 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807131239.IAA15893@dont.panix.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 13:25:00 +0200 From: obendorf@rrzn-lab.uni-hannover.de (Reinhard Obendorf) To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 71 Lines: 4 i simply made a .xtrekrc and a .hockeyrc. works, too... Greetx, Tilli From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 13:52:42 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23126 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id QAA02709 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807132040.QAA02709@dont.panix.com> From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:06:39 -0400 Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 3617 Lines: 74 > From: Tom Holub > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 11:41 > > Sven Neuhaus writes: [Note: Tom's first attribution lost, > > Tom Holub wrote:] > > > I expect that most players would prefer to see what the other guy > > > has defined. After all, he knows what he wants to say a lot more than > > > the client designers do. [snip] > The other person wants to covey a certain piece of information. He is > using an RCD because you may want to format it in a manner different > than he does. If you have not defined a format, you should get his, > because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one. The RCD is not meant for a 'certain piece' of info, the concept of the RCD is for a certain 'type' of information. For example, the 'F' distress is meant to get across that a player is carrying. Any additional information the recipient may like can be added in a custom RCD, but the basic purpose of the message is always the same, "I'm carrying XX armies!" If the sender thinks the first piece of info should be his fuel info, F0->FED Have 67% fuel and carrying 4 armies! well, he's not using it the way 99% of the players would want and expect. THE PLAYERS SHOULD GET THE DEFAULT. The defaults get the basic info across. They are adequate. They /DEFINE/ what the RCD is. Could you please explain and provide support for your last sentence, "If you have not defined a format, you should get [the sender's], because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one." What does it mean to be 'more accurate?' And why is it so 'by necessity?' I'll guess at what you mean by 'more accurate' to mean a more detailed message. It seems to me any attempt by the sender to be more detailed is doomed to fail. The sender cannot assume that any non-standard information he sends will get through since the players have formatted it themselves, but you can assume everyone has at least received whatever is in the default (that is, I assume players have not chosen a format that loses the essential info of the RCD). > The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, and > also were implemented poorly. Again, please elaborate on how they were chosen in a 'wrong-headed' manner. Is it so 'obvious' if most players don't seem to have major problems with the system? Coupling this statement with that in your first statement at the top, it seems you have a serious problem with the way they have been implemented. Rather than the small nit-pick about turning RCDs into macros when players have no default, what are these other 'obviously wrong-headed' aspects of the system? Once again, my $0.02. The RCD is what a player sends when he is in some common, generic Netrek situation that the rest of the team needs to know about, or if he has some general game information that he needs to communicate to the whole team. Many of these situations have RCDs associated with them. The player sends out the information to the team and each member receives the info in a format that they are familiar with and can quickly digest and respond (or not respond) to. When the player has information that he wants to send that does not fit into one of the given RCDs or is too specific to warrant an RCD, the player types it or uses a macro. If we want new RCDs, there are the generic help1, help2, etc., that are just waiting to be put to better uses in upcoming client versions. Maybe we can talk some people into making a couple of Hockey macros out of those. -- Crist J. Clark havok@us.netrek.org From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 15:36:45 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23805 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id SAA05990 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id SAA05985 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id PAA27949; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:33:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807132233.PAA27949@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807132040.QAA02709@dont.panix.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at "Jul 13, 98 02:06:39 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2754 Lines: 72 Crist J. Clark writes: > > From: Tom Holub > > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > > Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 11:41 > > > > Sven Neuhaus writes: > [Note: Tom's first attribution lost, > > > Tom Holub wrote:] > > > > I expect that most players would prefer to see what the other guy > > > > has defined. After all, he knows what he wants to say a lot more > than > > > > the client designers do. > > [snip] > > > The other person wants to covey a certain piece of information. He is > > using an RCD because you may want to format it in a manner different > > than he does. If you have not defined a format, you should get his, > > because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one. > > The RCD is not meant for a 'certain piece' of info, the concept of the > RCD is for a certain 'type' of information. That's the sort of thinking that made the system flawed in the first place. When I'm sending a message, I don't think about what the client designer intended when he coded "F", I think about the information I'm attempting to send with "F". > Could you please explain and provide support for your last sentence, > "If you have not defined a format, you should get [the sender's], > because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one." What > does it mean to be 'more accurate?' The purpose of the message board is to communicate information. The sender presumably knows exactly what his RCD says, and it's reasonable to assume that the information that is in his RCD is the information he is trying to convey. It is also reasonable to assume that the client author knows less about the information that player is trying to convey than that player does. That is why sending the player's RCD is "more accurate". > And why is it so 'by necessity?' Because the player knows what he wants to say, and the client author does not. > I'll guess at what you mean by 'more accurate' to mean a more detailed > message. It has nothing to do with detail. > > The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, and > > also were implemented poorly. > > Again, please elaborate on how they were chosen in a 'wrong-headed' > manner. Is it so 'obvious' if most players don't seem to have major > problems with the system? Most players don't use the system, which implies that many of them do have problems with it. > Coupling this statement with that in your > first statement at the top, it seems you have a serious problem with > the way they have been implemented. Yes, I do. > Rather than the small nit-pick about > turning RCDs into macros when players have no default, what are these > other 'obviously wrong-headed' aspects of the system? There are way too many. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 16:28:18 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24137 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id TAA07369 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id TAA07365 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from captain.ici.net (d-ma-superpop-2-118.ici.net [207.180.42.118]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10128 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AA9818.3BE34784@ici.net> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:28:26 -0400 From: Ryan Turcotte Organization: Internet Connection Customer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199807132233.PAA27949@shell3.ba.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 562 Lines: 18 Tom Holub wrote: > > > The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, > and > > > also were implemented poorly. > > > > Again, please elaborate on how they were chosen in a 'wrong-headed' > > manner. Is it so 'obvious' if most players don't seem to have major > > problems with the system? > > Most players don't use the system, which implies that many of them do > have > problems with it. I don't because macros are easier to use then RCD's. So why don't you use macros. Its easier for me to hit ` twice then to hit shift-e. -Clayboy From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 17:41:50 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24681 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id UAA09230 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id UAA09226 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id RAA11951; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:40:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807140040.RAA11951@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <35AA9818.3BE34784@ici.net> from Ryan Turcotte at "Jul 13, 98 07:28:26 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 720 Lines: 21 Ryan Turcotte writes: > Tom Holub wrote: > > > > > The current RCD's were chosen in an obviously wrong-headed manner, > > and > > > > also were implemented poorly. > > > > > > Again, please elaborate on how they were chosen in a 'wrong-headed' > > > manner. Is it so 'obvious' if most players don't seem to have major > > > problems with the system? > > > > Most players don't use the system, which implies that many of them do > > have > > problems with it. > > I don't because macros are easier to use then RCD's. So why don't you > use macros. Its easier for me to hit ` twice then to hit shift-e. It would be easier for me to hit you with a bat, and I'm sure there would be a lot of appreciative people. -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Mon Jul 13 17:02:37 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24460 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id UAA08280 for hockey-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807140001.UAA08280@dont.panix.com> From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:27:55 -0400 Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2589 Lines: 60 > From: Tom Holub > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 18:33 > > Crist J. Clark writes: > > The RCD is not meant for a 'certain piece' of info, the concept of the > > RCD is for a certain 'type' of information. > > That's the sort of thinking that made the system flawed in the first place. > When I'm sending a message, I don't think about what the client designer > intended when he coded "F", I think about the information I'm attempting > to send with "F". But someone had to decide what 'F' was going to mean for everybody. Who else but the client designers would make such a call? It won't work unless there is a standard meaning to the message. > > Could you please explain and provide support for your last sentence, > > "If you have not defined a format, you should get [the sender's], > > because it's by necessity more accurate than the built-in one." What > > does it mean to be 'more accurate?' > > The purpose of the message board is to communicate information. The sender > presumably knows exactly what his RCD says, and it's reasonable to assume > that the information that is in his RCD is the information he is trying > to convey. It is also reasonable to assume that the client author knows > less about the information that player is trying to convey than that player > does. That is why sending the player's RCD is "more accurate". But the receiving players know no more about what the player is trying to say than the client designer. Why is the listener's RCD a better guess at what is being sent than the client makers'? You'd need to send the sender's RCD to everyone, regardless of the receivers' formatting. We already have that; it's called a macro. The sender has to understand what the other players will expect for the given RCD. > > And why is it so 'by necessity?' > > Because the player knows what he wants to say, and the client author does > not. Again, nor do those who receive the RCD. How do they know to format it the way you want them too. > > Rather than the small nit-pick about > > turning RCDs into macros when players have no default, what are these > > other 'obviously wrong-headed' aspects of the system? > > There are way too many. OK, but still, can we have your master scheme to revise the RCD concept to make it universally used and loved by all Netrekers, Bronco, Hockey, Chaos, Sturgeon, Paradise, etc., etc. How do you plan to send all of this 'accurate' information around with even fewer RCDs? -- Crist J. Clark havok@us.netrek.org From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Sat Jul 18 09:28:09 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22921 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id MAA01999 for hockey-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (root@shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id MAA01995 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from doosh@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id JAA25271; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:26:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Holub Message-Id: <199807181626.JAA25271@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs In-Reply-To: <199807140001.UAA08280@dont.panix.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at "Jul 13, 98 07:27:55 pm" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hockey@lists.panix.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2035 Lines: 44 Crist J. Clark writes: > > From: Tom Holub > > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > > > > The purpose of the message board is to communicate information. The > sender > > presumably knows exactly what his RCD says, and it's reasonable to assume > > that the information that is in his RCD is the information he is trying > > to convey. It is also reasonable to assume that the client author knows > > less about the information that player is trying to convey than that > player > > does. That is why sending the player's RCD is "more accurate". > > But the receiving players know no more about what the player is trying to > say than the client designer. Why is the listener's RCD a better guess at > what is being sent than the client makers'? It probably isn't. However, the people who wrote and championed RCD's were of the opinion that it's more important to see the information in the format you want than to get the correct information. While I don't particularly agree with that philosophy, I've played on many teams with RCD bigots and therefore have gotten used to using them. > > > Rather than the small nit-pick about > > > turning RCDs into macros when players have no default, what are these > > > other 'obviously wrong-headed' aspects of the system? > > > > There are way too many. > > OK, but still, can we have your master scheme to revise the RCD concept > to make it universally used and loved by all Netrekers, Bronco, Hockey, > Chaos, Sturgeon, Paradise, etc., etc. How do you plan to send all of this > 'accurate' information around with even fewer RCDs? You reduce the number of RCD's to something that is managable, maybe 5 or 6, with more nebulous definitions. Possibly something like: Non-urgent information about my ship (current shift-F) Urgent information about my ship (current shift-E) "Look at this place on the galactic" (current EMERGENCY AT ORG! or "I'm Open!") Information about enemy ship ("2++" in bronco, "2 crippled" in hockey) OGG BASE Escort to ORG -Tom From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 16 15:37:03 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11836 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id SAA05933 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807162236.SAA05933@dont.panix.com> From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:02:36 -0400 Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 675 Lines: 21 > From: Tom Holub > Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: Hockey RCDs > Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 20:40 > > Ryan Turcotte writes: > > I don't because macros are easier to use then RCD's. So why don't you > > use macros. Its easier for me to hit ` twice then to hit shift-e. > > It would be easier for me to hit you with a bat, and I'm sure there would > be a lot of appreciative people. We would appreciate it a lot, Ryan. But your sacrifice might be in vain, some prison inmates can get on the Internet. Now Tom, if you aren't going to play nice... I'm very much finished with this thread. -- Crist J. Clark havok@us.netrek.org From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Thu Jul 9 05:07:08 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA00203 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id IAA10367 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807091202.IAA10367@dont.panix.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:41:45 +0200 From: John Morgan Salomon Organization: Bull (Switzerland) AG MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: [Fwd: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7A069661E47BDFB6AB9868BB" Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2932 Lines: 81 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7A069661E47BDFB6AB9868BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dude. Team # 5. -John Fuzzy Bunny -- Smiley Happy Faces from Bull (Switzerland) AG john@bull.ch --------------7A069661E47BDFB6AB9868BB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-POP3-Rcpt: john@dns Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (G3VJkJsCVjVsRbDHAyA+3d3Y7POjuOjm@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by dns.bull.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA39930 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:15:04 +0200 Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/) via ESMTP id EAA17066 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:15:00 -0700 (PDT) env-from (owner-hockey@dont.panix.com) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id HAA09581 for hockey-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mccsun1.MIT.EDU (MCCSUN1.MIT.EDU [18.70.1.24]) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) with ESMTP id HAA09577 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sdfranks@localhost) by mccsun1.MIT.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.12) id HAA19778; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807091106.HAA19778@mccsun1.MIT.EDU> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Re: Netrek-Hockey: RCDs and hockey In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:54:41 EDT." <35A430EE.F4399FEF@ici.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:06:27 EDT From: Steve Franks Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Clayboy wrote: > I think you should just leave the Idiot be, he doesnt know what the > heck hes talking about. Maybe when hes on we should use our Save Planet > RCD so he and only he gets the message that we're OPEN! Good idea aie? Clayboy, don't be a fucking twink. Everyone has valid points in the discussion. If you think about it, Tom's way is a better way as long as everyone uses the same convention, which is what Ken is trying to find out. Posts of this sort are counterproductive and will start a baseless flame war which you will lose. Maybe we just need to make this an RCD mac.l.A:% ___ _ mac.l.A:% | / |\/|o ______ ___ _ _ ____ _______ __ mac.l.A:% _|_\_| |o _ | _ \ \ / / \ | | / \ / ___|_ _\ \ / / mac.l.A: | || |___ __| |_____ _ _| | | \ V /| \| | / _ \ \___ \ | | \ V / mac.L.A: | __ / _ \/ _| / / -_) || | |_| || | | |\ |/ ___ \ ___) || | | | mac.L.A: |_||_\___/\__|_\_\___|\_, |____/ |_| |_| \_/_/ \_\____/ |_| |_| mac.L.A:% |__/ --Steve --------------7A069661E47BDFB6AB9868BB-- From owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Fri Jul 10 04:53:15 1998 Return-Path: owner-hockey@dont.panix.com Received: from dont.panix.com (dont.panix.com [166.84.0.211]) by brain.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06586 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by dont.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixLC1.4) id HAA19902 for hockey-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807101150.HAA19902@dont.panix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:07:32 -0400 From: "John Cuckovich" To: hockey@lists.panix.com Subject: Netrek-Hockey: RCD: hasnt it died yet? ;-) Sender: owner-hockey@lists.panix.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hockey@lists.panix.com Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 8 think this thread is dead & buried by this time.. ken's suggestion of mailing to him & making a concensus sounded really nice ;-) also: thoughts on changing hockey night back to tuesday? inl matches are usu thursday & cant play. ciao, jc